RNAV Arrival

[Bill Bridges]

I need to rethink my question and come back later.

[Bill Bridges]

In the above example when NoPT is not present on the inbound Track (WAGNR) can the aircraft turn inbound at the IAF (ORTMN) or must it turn outbound and follow the outbound track to reverse course?

[Scott Dyer HPN/NY]

In the above example when NoPT is not present on the inbound Track (WAGNR) can the aircraft turn inbound at the IAF (ORTMN) or must it turn outbound and follow the outbound track to reverse course?

Bill -- If you are flying the segment from WAGNR to ORTMN, and there is no NOPT on the chart, then you must fly the HILPT. Were you cleared, for example, from somewhere southeast of ORTMN direct to ORTMN and then for the "straight in" approach, then you would not fly the HILPT (unless you received an express clearance to do so). And if you were vectored to final between ORTMN and BARRY you would not fly the course reversal.

See the AIM: 5−4−9. Procedure Turn and Hold−in−lieu of
Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed
when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish
the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
approach course. The procedure turn or hold−in−
lieu−of−PT is a required maneuver when it is depicted
on the approach chart, unless cleared by ATC for a
straight−in approach. Additionally, the procedure
turn or hold−in−lieu−of−PT is not permitted when the
symbol “No PT” is depicted on the initial segment
being used, when a RADAR VECTOR to the final
approach course is provided, or when conducting a
timed approach from a holding fix. The altitude
prescribed for the procedure turn is a minimum
altitude until the aircraft is established on the inbound
course. The maneuver must be completed within the
distance specified in the profile view. For a
hold−in−lieu−of−PT, the holding pattern direction
must be flown as depicted and the specified leg
length/timing must not be exceeded.

[John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]

In the above example when NoPT is not present on the inbound Track (WAGNR) can the aircraft turn inbound at the IAF (ORTMN)

Unless I am missing something, NoPT IS shown on that plate between the IAF at WAGNR and ORTMN. Or are you asking what would be required if it wasn't shown? (Which Scott answered).

[Bill Bridges]

Scott,

Must the entry into the HILPT be flown as published, or can it be flown by turning outbound on a heading of 114 at ORMAN for one minute then a right turn to reverse course and join the 324 inbound course to ORTMN?

[Bill Bridges]

Unless I am missing something, NoPT IS shown on that plate between the IAF at WAGNR and ORTMN. Or are you asking what would be required if it wasn't shown? (Which Scott answered).

John,

I was asking "what would be required if it wasn't shown." I saw a similar approach (MWCR RNAV08) into a non-radar facility this week. It was the first time I had seen a HILT on an RNAV approach.

[Andy Alson]

Scott,

Must the entry into the HILPT be flown as published, or can it be flown by turning outbound on a heading of 114 at ORMAN for one minute then a right turn to reverse course and join the 324 inbound course to ORTMN?

You can use any of standard hold entries in to the published hold which would include the teardrop entry you proposed. The entry into a published hold is not mandated, only the hold itself.

Andy

[Scott Dyer HPN/NY]

Scott,

Must the entry into the HILPT be flown as published, or can it be flown by turning outbound on a heading of 114 at ORMAN for one minute then a right turn to reverse course and join the 324 inbound course to ORTMN?

Bill - Andy covered it. Just remember your maximum holding speeds as you simulate flying jet aircraft.

[Scott Dyer HPN/NY]

You can use any of standard hold entries in to the published hold which would include the teardrop entry you proposed. The entry into a published hold is not mandated, only the hold itself.

Andy

Thanks, Andy, I was out doing a little skywriting this afternoon.

[Bill Bridges]

Bill - Andy covered it....

I grew up on DoD plates and Procedural Tracks have a different meaning to me than when I am using Jepps. The Jepps seem to use them differently so when I see something like the HILT the thought crosses my mine "Do I fly it as published or can I enter like I would normally?"

Thanks for the clarification.

[Scott Dyer HPN/NY]

I grew up on DoD plates and Procedural Tracks have a different meaning to me than when I am using Jepps. The Jepps seem to use them differently so when I see something like the HILT the thought crosses my mine "Do I fly it as published or can I enter like I would normally?"

Thanks for the clarification.

Hi Bill -- <<Procedural Tracks>> I'm not familiar with that as a term of art....can you explain?

[Bill Bridges]

Hi Bill -- <<Procedural Tracks>> I'm not familiar with that as a term of art....can you explain?

Procedural Track a/k/a Procedure Track. When I see a heavy, dark line with an arrow head that would indicate to me that I must fly that course. In the HILT example above I would not have performed a tear drop entry but would have flown the outbound course of 144.

When I see what I would consider a Procedure Turn symbol I almost always use a tear drop because it works best with my simple mind. When I see a Jepp (and I may be misreading the IAP) the Procedure Turn looks like a Procedure Track to me and I must fly the course as published.

[John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]

Thanks, Andy, I was out doing a little skywriting this afternoon.

Writing? Looks more like Sky Scribbling to me.

[John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]

I was scribbling too: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/...938Z/KFCM/KFCM

[Andy Alson]

Thanks, Andy, I was out doing a little skywriting this afternoon.

I noticed. Looks like you're IFR current!