C-97 Still Losing Engines!

[Randy Sohn]

curious..........block goes.....prrhaps chip detectors in the oil?

Don't recall having any "block"? Just 4 rows of 7 jugs each.

And we used a rather conservative cruise power of 1735 BHP and a 10 BMEP drop on each engine. While on the CV's R-2800s (on the airline0 we used an 1100 horse cruise and leaned to a 4 drop.

best, randy

[Jase Pence]

Chuckle, chuckle, yup, concur! Thinking back now to the old daze when somebody had used the "corncob" in a single engined airplane, try'na think now who/what it was - Grumman Guardian meb'be? Anyone here know?

best, randy

Randy, the Martin Mauler as well as the F2G "Super Corsair"

Told Fuentes you said Hi, gave him your number (ends with 267?) He was happy you remembered him!! Told him to call you and say hey.

Best

Jase

[Ralph Jones]

Well, radials don't have a "block"per se -- each cylinder is a separate assembly -- and that means a very complex thermal distribution. A moderately hot cylinder here, a nearly red-hot exhaust manifold there, a cold intake manifold somewhere else...thermal shock was terrible. The R-3350 was a perfect b***h to cool in its early days, so bad that engine fires shot down more B-29's than Japan did...the R-4360 had the advantage of being perfected in a peacetime environment, but it still must have been tough.

[Russell Holton]

4) ALL operators of the R-4360, whether the airlines, the military, Hawkins and Powers, or Steve Hinton /Planes of Fame; have shelled out engines. It is the nature of the beast.

I'm mildly curious about why that is. About the only activities I can think of that regularly goes though engines is drag racing, tractor pulls, etc. In their case, it's understandable. Why something that's being run within it's specs is doing it is curious.

To protect future engines, have you thought about how to detect problems and shutdown before the block goes? Perhaps chip detectors in the oil?

[Terry Carraway]

Chuckle, chuckle, yup, concur! Thinking back now to the old daze when somebody had used the "corncob" in a single engined airplane, try'na think now who/what it was - Grumman Guardian meb'be? Anyone here know?

best, randy

FG Corsair

Guardian was an R-2800. In a 22,000 pound aircraft.

[Randy Sohn]

Jase,
-4360's have been doing what they do for a really long time. Sometimes they're great, other times, you're delighted to have the other three

Chuckle, chuckle, yup, concur! Thinking back now to the old daze when somebody had used the "corncob" in a single engined airplane, try'na think now who/what it was - Grumman Guardian meb'be? Anyone here know?

best, randy

[A. Niemyer]

Jase,
Thanks for the updates. The -4360's have been doing what they do for a really long time. Sometimes they're great, other times, you're delighted to have the other three. At least they're consistent. Hope the Greybull deal goes through quickly and smoothly; that should hopefully keep things perking along for a while.

Very best regards,

[Randy Sohn]

Ah well, my standard saying applies here in spades: "If it was easy everyone would be doing it"

Ah-so, concur! You getta chance, say "HI" from me to all those guys that you mentioned earlier, Tim, Fuentes, Steverino. That 153 weight that you mentioned was the figure we used for the transport C-97s in MATS, SAC operated them up around 197 so so on the KC (tanker) version.

Only recall shelling a couple of "conrncobs" in the time I flew them, one that stands out most in my memory was once coming back from Saigon. After departing Hawaii for Travis AFB I had to cage #3 about a half hour past ETP (Equal Time Point) and the next several hours boring along with several fighter pilot guys who'd hitched a ride back home with us all sitting in the cockpit with us, all of them staring with wide eyes at that feathered prop just outside our window and an ANG flight crew. Chuckle.

BTW concur, sure nice to see'ya here again!

best, randy

[Jase Pence]

The response from airshow promoters has been really gratifying. We were scheduled for Lancaster PA in August. Depending upon funds, theres a chance we could still make that. 2019 was to have been our "training" year, starting to see what the airplane was going to be like in operations and what kind of support from shows would be like. We had been very pleased up till now with the response from the public, airshows, and the plane itself. Angel has been very "easy" and cooperative, if such adjectives can apply to such a big & complex girl.

Ah well, my standard saying applies here in spades: "If it was easy everyone would be doing it"

Best
Jase

[Jase Pence]

As am I, Andy!! In all seriousness, as we all know here, *this* is why we train for emergencies. (This was technically not a declared emergency, but y'all know what I mean). I don't intend to minimize it, certainly shelling one out in flight is a serious situation.... but we *did* have 3 more that were droning along just fine. Also, in contrast to how the USAF & ANG flew these, we were very light. Max takeoff on ours, by the book, is 153k lbs. I know they were regularly flown at weights as high as ~190k with the J47 jets. We are, empty, 80k. BOW is 86k, on this flight we were ~95k. Amusingly, we are so light we aren't even on the Performance Charts. They start at 100k!!

I've seen a lot of Keyboard Kommandos online who have been talking smack that we shelled one. Best I can say in response is the following:
1) Tim Chopp, BAHF's founder & pilot, has over 14k hours just in heavy piston aircraft, over the last 40 or so years. He is also an A&P, and I have known and worked with him almost 20 years now. To say he takes his duties and responsibilities *seriously* is a total understatement. He is one of the more knowledgeable and cautious pilots I've seen in a quarter century of warbirding. I rank him with Randy, "lil tiger" Fuentes, and Steve Hinton, as pilots I will fly *anything anywhere anytime * with.
2) We are operating both the Boeing and the Douglas in strict accordance with the aircraft-specific manuals, as well as the more general stuff, such as Pratt & Whitney's seminal "The Aircraft Engine and its Operation".
3) I personally was involved in pulling screens on all 4 engines 1 flight previous to this one... nothing untoward was found.
4) ALL operators of the R-4360, whether the airlines, the military, Hawkins and Powers, or Steve Hinton /Planes of Fame; have shelled out engines. It is the nature of the beast. We believe that we will be able to operate for quite some time in a very conservative way (e.g. flying light, and as economically as you can get on a 28 cylinder monster!!).
5) The engine that shelled, was put on years ago in Alaska and frankly I'm not sure exactly what its history was.
6) It may indeed turn out that the age of the available engines will end up eventually making us unable to continue to operate the C-97. If that happens, *at least by G-d we tried it*. That's more than many other folks can say.

Yes, we do have a plan. Actually we had planned all along to purchase the GEY -97's, the timetable has just been moved up significantly. Now all it takes is raising the funds.

Best,
Jase

Jase,
So glad you’re back and here to tell the tale of the event. Naturally, we’re also all glad to know she got back safely on the ground, it almost goes without saying.

Thanks so much for the update; sounds like you all have a plan and a way forward.

very best regards,
Andy

[Tom Tyson]

Hi Jase! Good to have you back home.

What is/was the schedule for “Angel” this summer?

Regards - TT

[A. Niemyer]

Jase,
So glad you’re back and here to tell the tale of the event. Naturally, we’re also all glad to know she got back safely on the ground, it almost goes without saying.

Thanks so much for the update; sounds like you all have a plan and a way forward.

very best regards,
Andy

[Jase Pence]

Yes, it is. If anyone remembers Jason Pence, he's deep into the C-97, planning on qualifying as Flight Engineer.

He was a big help to us at Reading last weekend.

Hi Bruce & all, thanks for the kind words. Just glad to be in the right place at the right time & able to help. I sure do love the Belle, and its obvious she's getting a lot of love & attention with y'all.

As far as the C-97: Yes, we shelled #2 pretty spectacularly. Drained the sump and got "pieces with part numbers". Half dozen pieces of a piston ring, and a chunk of piston in addition to enough metal shavings in the screen to fill a styro coffee cup.

Yes, we are probably more than a little crazy to be operating such a great big complex airplane, on a "non-profit budget"... but couldn't the same be said about when Randy & co brought FiFi out of China Lake all those years ago?

The 300k figure is to buy the 2 best/closest to airworthy -97s out of Greybull. That gets us 8 engines that are 1) known good and 2) with logs and papers. Also 8 props, and a full spares package. Basically parting out Tanker 97 and the other one. We (Berlin Airlift Historical Foundation) believe this package will enable us to operate the C-97 well into the future. Except for a couple of Reno Unlimited racers and the Super Corsair, we are the very LAST ones (foolish enough) to be operating the R-4360 engine in flight. I happen to think that it is important to show the public an operational example (or 4!!) of the apex of piston engine development.

We welcome any & all donations to this cause, whether monetary; prayers for our sanity; or just good thoughts our way. We are, of course, a 501C3.

Personally, it was running into Bruce at WW2 weekend that prompted me to rejoin the 'sig. Good to be back amongst friends.

Best
Jase

[John Tucci]

Thanks all. I was privileged to visit it several times while being refurbished at Floyd Bennet. Sadly, I missed its departure.

[A. Niemyer]

Andy, was this the 97 rehab’d at Floyd Bennet Field and flown out a year or so Ago?

John,
Yes, it is! Hopefully they'll get the donations sufficient to replace that engine and get all the spares they need.

Best,
Andy