Tower denies takeoff clearance for student pilot

[Gil Buettner]

My student was on his short solo cross country flight. When he landed at Eau Claire, after exiting the runway, he lost all electrical power in the Cessna 172. So he called me. I suggested he call the tower on the phone and ask for takeoff clearance, and after searching for a few minutes, provided him the phone number. Tower controller denied clearance, saying he needed two-way radio contact to fly in Class D airspace.

Now, I have arranged clearance by phone before at Central Wisconsin Airport, flying in a J-3 with no electrical system or radio. My question is this: Why do the FARs define light signals? Only for emergencies? Steady green means "cleared for takeoff."

We left the airplane there and brought the student pilot home with another plane.

[Mark Horak]

A little checking just now tells me that there are towered airports in Class G. And it also appears ATC can authorize takeoff without two-way radio communications at such towers: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.126 (see section d). Maybe that's where the steady green would be appropriate.

The verbiage for Class D does not seem to leave ATC with that kind of latitude: http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.129. But WDIK?

[B.Butler]

It's always been understood that the "unless otherwise authorized..." phrase means exactly what it seems to say. The facility has the discretion to decide how this would play, and they did.

The prearranged departure is certainly common, but I can think of circumstances in which I might decline the clearance. The student's story that he lost power "after exiting the runway" leaves open the possibility that it failed earlier and he arrived unannounced for just one example and I can think of a number of others.

BTW, when you dispatched a second airplane, did you consider a formation departure?

[Russell Holton]

If the airplane wasn't equipped with a radio, that would be one thing. But to allow a student to depart in a airplane with MX issues starts to feel like a link in a chain. What else has failed/will fail and how well can the solo student handle it without the ability to "phone a friend"?

[John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]

I fly with students to Eau Claire every couple of months or so. The tower there is a contract tower. They have been the least flexible tower I have dealt with in the midwest. Not sure if being a contract tower has anything to do with it. They seem to really hate practice approaches, often turning us out for well longer than would seem necessary to get other traffic in or out.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...gram/fct_list/

[Jeff Hartmann]

Looked in my log... January of 1972 I was delivering a no radio Seneca from Vero to Lock Haven. Stopped in Hilton Head, (no rooms) remembered a hotel on the airport in Savannah. I made a phone call and the tower green lighted me in. The next morning it was IFR with great visibility, and the weather about 5 north was clear, several other planes got specials out, and I went to the tower to BS and wait. In the tower the controller said we need communication to give you a special, and he said " runway heading until clear of the (then) control zone". So I hopped in my nordo Pa-34 and headed out... Unfortunately, at the runway the ceiling dropped and he lighted me a return to starting point. Two hours later I was on my way... Point being, he considered our face to face "two way communication".
I have been to EuClaire a few times when Paul Menard was our driver.... really cold up there in the winter.

[Gil Buettner]

The student's story that he lost power "after exiting the runway" leaves open the possibility that it failed earlier and he arrived unannounced for just one example and I can think of a number of others.

BTW, when you dispatched a second airplane, did you consider a formation departure?

I would never consider formation unless both pilots have formation training. The student's last radio communication before losing power was a clearance to taxi to the FBO. Which is interesting because I had instructed him to ask for a "full stop, taxi back."

[Paul Millner]

It's always been understood that the "unless otherwise authorized..." phrase means exactly what it seems to say. The facility has the discretion to decide how this would play, and they did.

Naw, you just call them, and ADVISE them you're taking off... but use the N# of Bertorelli's old Mooney that later landed one last time in the mudflats. That N# saved me lots of troubles over the years... landing fees, etc. :-)

Note: green means sarcasm...

[B.Butler]

Naw, you just call them, and ADVISE them you're taking off... but use the N# of Bertorelli's old Mooney that later landed one last time in the mudflats. That N# saved me lots of troubles over the years... landing fees, etc. :-)

Note: green means sarcasm...

You too!?

[Terry Carraway]

I would never consider formation unless both pilots have formation training.

This is a VERY important thing to remember.

And that the lead has training as a LEAD.

A former WWII Navy ferry pilot told me that a long time ago. And he also said, if the person tells you that they are trained, ask them which is harder to fly, lead or wing. I know you know the answer.

[Dave Siciliano]

Humm. I always thought which position was harder to fly depended on what the other guy did.

[Terry Carraway]

A bad lead does make it hard to fly wing.

But that is why lead is harder.

[Tom Charlton]

Humm. I always thought which position was harder to fly depended on what the other guy did.

Hi Dave
Used to fly occasional unstructured formation in years past. Mentoring from the AvSig brain trust, and a modicum of common sense have angled me away from that. Seeing another aircraft floating in the air nearby is a beautiful thing. I know what my stick, rudder and throttle capabilities are. I know what my escape plan is. But: what do I really know about the other pilot?

Regards,
Tom Charlton

[Dave Siciliano]

I haven’t done a lot of formation flying. Whet it did in the military was as a wingman and very tight. Could be complicated by hostile fire. Flying along side of a good lead pilot was pretty tame considering what’s being done. In other cases, it could be a real cluster. I was kinda joking with the green font, but there’s an element of truth to my statement (:

[Dave Siciliano]

What above. Sorry, I can’t edit on here sometimes.