Fixed Wing Training Simulators

[Bill Bridges]

Precision Flight Controls makes desktop flight simulators that are FAA approved per their website. This is the company where I purchased my yoke and throttle quadrants.

Grace and Peace,

[Scott Dyer HPN/NY]

Thanks for the point out, Bill. It's a bit frustrating that they don't list prices for the basic BATDs and AATDs, at least I couldn't find them. I expect that the market is going to undergo a revolution with the change in FAA regs on IFR currency via BATD/AATD.

[John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]

I expect that the market is going to undergo a revolution with the change in FAA regs on IFR currency via BATD/AATD.

I wonder. If the FAA requires the system to be sold as a "system" with all hardware and software configured to work together, we might not see much of a drop. Now, if they let us put together our own systems, that might save some money, but I don't know if the regs will allow that.

This is the least expensive system I've seen so far: https://www.flythissim.com/products/...rainer-sd.html

It starts at $5400. Goes up from there with options.

[Russell Holton]

It starts at $5400. Goes up from there with options.

Seems to me that would be a very attractive price point for the club to add another 'aircraft' to the fleet.

[Scott Dyer HPN/NY]

I wonder. If the FAA requires the system to be sold as a "system" with all hardware and software configured to work together, we might not see much of a drop. Now, if they let us put together our own systems, that might save some money, but I don't know if the regs will allow that.

This is the least expensive system I've seen so far: https://www.flythissim.com/products/...rainer-sd.html

It starts at $5400. Goes up from there with options.

John -- I'd be interesting to partner with another pilot on buying one of these and getting in the habit of flying at least a couple of approaches every month. For me anyway, approaches in actual are often a feast or famine thing.

[John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]

Seems to me that would be a very attractive price point for the club to add another 'aircraft' to the fleet.

It's not bad, but as a frugal pilot, I want to see what else is out there. Also, if I can save some money by putting things together (As I am skilled in that, and often enjoy it) I'd rather go that route if it were available.

[John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]

John -- I'd be interesting to partner with another pilot on buying one of these and getting in the habit of flying at least a couple of approaches every month. For me anyway, approaches in actual are often a feast or famine thing.

A few FBOs are starting in our area are starting to install the new lower cost training devices.

[Scott Dyer HPN/NY]

John -- I'd be happy enough if our local %^& flight school didn't require a CFI in the box at all times....even with the new regs. That makes it a 35 min. drive to the nearest FBO that doesn't have such a stupid policy.

[Russell Holton]

It's not bad, but as a frugal pilot, I want to see what else is out there. Also, if I can save some money by putting things together (As I am skilled in that, and often enjoy it) I'd rather go that route if it were available.

I tried my Google-Fu. I found Personal Flight Simulators 101: Introduction. I'd read the comments in the bottom as there's a discussion on if a instructor is required in order to log the time (making it less practical for home use and more attractive to clubs).

It also references AC_61-136A. A quick skim indicates that a Letter of Authority is involved. I tend to suspect that unless you buy a complete system, you'll end up having to certify as a "manufacturer" - even if what you assemble is exactly the same as an already certified complete system. (We're talking government regulations, not logic ) IOW, I'll bet a good chunk of that $5K goes toward the regulatory overhead needed to make your system authorized with minimal effort on your part. So, the question is likely to become what does it take to be a certified "maker"? I'll leave that to someone more experienced in digging though government regulations.

The other thing that should be considered is if anyone else in the club would be able to take over this effort should you move on (for whatever reason). A few extra bucks for "the kit" might be worth it if it means that someone else can step up and help out.

[John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]

I tried my Google-Fu. I found Personal Flight Simulators 101: Introduction. I'd read the comments in the bottom as there's a discussion on if a instructor is required in order to log the time (making it less practical for home use and more attractive to clubs).

It also references AC_61-136A. A quick skim indicates that a Letter of Authority is involved.

Thanks, Russell!

Yes, I'd guess this is what will stop the idea of creating one myself. Along with your good point about others supporting it. I just want to better understand what I'm paying for if I look at a collection of software and hardware that is available off the shelf, for (let's say) $3000, but to get it as an approved package, I have to pay $6000.00

Also, a lot of the renewed interest is based on rule changes that went into effect in July allowing some significant use WITHOUT an instructor present.

https://landing.redbirdflight.com/posts/how-to-use-your-aviation-training-device-when-the-part-61-changes-take-effect

[John O'Shaughnessy [FCM]]

Yes, this comment from the AvWeb article pretty much sums it up. I won't be able to get credit if I "roll my own."

There are two categories of ATDs as defined by the FAA in Advisory Circular AC 61-136A: Basic (BATD) and Advanced (AATD). An ATD is approved by the FAA after a request from the original manufacturer and sold as a complete product.

Now for that kind of money, I want a Garmin 650 in the panel, not the 430...

[Russell Holton]

Also, a lot of the renewed interest is based on rule changes that went into effect in July allowing some significant use WITHOUT an instructor present.

I still wonder about what level of documentation is required. I'd think from an administrative standpoint, the FAA would want something that would require collusion to pencil-whip any logbook entry, or at least some way verifying it in case the entry to drawn into question. Having a logbook entry backed by a club's receipt that says you rented the device for x hours would be nice bit of backup.

[Scott Dyer HPN/NY]

Russell -- The FAA was pretty clear in the preamble to the final rule that just as I (if IFR current) can go out and fly 6 approaches in acutal, do nav tracking and a hold, without a CFI or other watchdog present, so too people should be trusted to maintain currency in BATDs and AATDs without a watchdog or other scrutiny. Lots of aviation is trust....landing currency, medicals, annuals, static and transponder checks, etc.